i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
We start blind but can be enlightened, start "un-alive" but are born spiritually.
The dream analogy is a good one
or as some say: the flesh is nothing [elements of the dream have no actual reality] and the spirit is everything [true reality].
damn, agreement is always chat death.
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
So, to what extent do you believe Jesus was involved in creation (as per your reading of ancient literature)?
here is what I have come to actually believe about the entire situation....
reality cannot be created nor destroyed...its like an eternal ocean of something, call it spirit for lack of a useful term.... waves upon this spirit became conscious, us...
but we are like one born into a dream, unable to see anything but the waves, we have no sense of the ocean which causes them... we are blind deaf and dumb to "GOD" The Generator Of Diversity.
in the distant past, the mystery schools had their start...what they taught seems to be myths and legends and stories about a great hero who is a god that becomes human to teach us the way...is violently killed and rises from the dead... this theme is found over and over again in many cultures, likely spread by the trade routes... the hero with a thousand faces --Joseph Campbell.
the purpose of the mysteries seems to be to help us learn what we infact actually are, but indirectly because we reject instantly the very thing they teach directly, namely that not only are we these waves upon the ocean that is unknown to us, but we are infact this ocean too... we are GOD.
according to a recent book THE JESUS MYSTERIES, the legend of Jesus began as a jewish-helenistic revision of these very stories, complete with the twelve signs of the zodiac, the traditional apostles. the story gets distorted in the retelling, especially by those not initiated into the mysteries and is taken literally by the ignorant who become CONviNcED that Jesus actually existed...which of course is the opposite message that was intended, namely that WE are the ONE the story is really about. By making Jesus a real person seperated from us and then deified as part of God, he is forever NOT US and we never attain what was intended, the enlightenment behind the original story and the understanding of our trueself...the ocean of spirit which dreams of being men.
So yes, the story tellers make Jesus divine, but not as part of GOD seperated from us, but as a symbol of GOD which is us...
the catholics further muddy the waters by inventing the non-sensical doctrine of creation ex nilo... from nothing, because this guarentees that no one will get the idea that they can become ONE with GOD as Jesus' prays [John 17] without using the CHURCH as a bridge. The actual hebrew word Bera [to cut something off of a tree] means to MAKE something already existing into something else...not to create from nothing...
the Greek concept of the divine logos [logic, wisdom. etc] being the first aspect of God and involved in the MAKING of all things, speaks to the conscious waves arising from the eternal GOD ocean and FORMING things into what we find.... the Logos was WITH, GOD as the dream is within the dreamer....and the LOGOS was GOD.... there dream and dreamer are not seperate..not one,not two... the dream became reality and all of reality that was dreamed was made by the dreamer.... the world we KNOW is our own mental invention, the dream.
see www.geocities.com/jiohdi/reality.jpg for a visual aid in seeing our delemna as to knowing our true nature... the dreamer can realize he is dreaming, become a lucid dreamer...he can break free of the trance state that we so often find ourselves in while dreaming, to REALIZE that we are dreaming...but the dreamer can never use a single item found in his dream to point to and know his true nature...nothing in the dream is that.
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
Onto your next post - why on earth would I want to limit my consideration to merely the bible? I did hint that you might not know my position regarding it. I would however direct you to John 20:28, since you seem to specifically want to see Jesus deified in any respects by anyone in the bible.
this is used by many trinitarian, but if you read carefully what I am saying, it is NOT someone TEACHING someone something alien, its a statement of shock, amazement, humility, fear, etc...but certainly not someone teaching us the reader that we should see Jesus as God... I hear people saying OH MY GOD to me all the time, and I just tell them, they need not be so formal, they can call me Ric.
At least, with this post, you are confessing that you are starting from a point of assumption, that being the "traditional Jewish" one. I'm glad we've got that clear, because I was attempting to discuss this froma point of no bias whatsoever.
the myth of objectivity abounds but is meaningless... words do NOT contain meaning but trigger experiences... if we share experiences with the author we get what they are pointing too. now if you grasp that you see there is no such thing as non-biased, we must assume who we are speaking to or reading from to get an inkling of what they are trying to point to...Even then we may be wrong, as in this case there is no real way to confirm our guesswork....and this is where the problems lie...
those who are taught about a trinity as part of orthodox belief are reading the bible with that idea already in their minds and when they find a verse which SEEMS to support it, they reinforce that belief. from all the history I have read I find no validity to the notion that the jews of the first century, which would include Paul and the other bible writers with the exceptions of luke and mark... believed in anything other than one god as the father alone. I find no evidence that anyone but pagan converts formulated the beliefs which lead directly to the trinity...which was an easy step for them considering that their concepts of what constitutes a god was far more flexible.
Onto your final post - I already showed you that I see Jesus as Bene-Elohim. The NT calls him the only-begotten son (bene). MY point merely rests on whether or not we can identify "the Word" as YHWH, as in fact some translators of the NT into Hebrew have done.
I find NO translators save for one possible slip in Hebrews associating Jesus or the Word with YHWH other than the association of father and son.
You ask for verses about Jesus being involved in the creative process (and hence almost certainly the discussion seen in Genesis one). How about the very passage that this thread was sparked by: Col.1:16?
no I asked for no such thing.
I'm intrigued by your passion, regarding this. Is it really "only an academic puzzle" to you?
I am not sure what ulterior motives you are seeking, I don't care if you believe Jesus was God or not when it comes to your personal beliefs or faith, or even if you believe he was a real person, which I certainly do not.... I think he was a gnostic myth invented by Paul to help jews see the pagan mysteries which he was initiated in [see THE JESUS MYSTERIES]
as a JW, I did not take the WT's word for seeing no trinity in the bible...instead I got a note book and started jotting down every verse I could find which mentions Jesus and God, Jesus and the father, the holy spirit, etc...and I came up with over 125 verse and the overwhelming conviction that JWs were right...at least for the most part...I think they were dishonest about hiding one verse that they translate as Lord, when they KNEW it is a quote from the OT where YHWH or Jehovah was used... I would not have known about it had I not read it in their own books though.
as a JW for over ten years, I argued about the trinity with many different people of different christian persuasions and it became a challenge for me to find the way or means to show them they were mistaken...which of course I rarely did...but after being a JW and after being a christian the question of why I met with so little success became my overriding reason for continuing this with others.... not to mention my little brother who was never a JW got into it on his own and found me a rich source of knowledge about the subject when he started arguing with others about it for his own reasons which I figure is some sort of mental virus that infects people from time to time and they need to get it out of their system....
there may be one motive you can say give me my passion: I find it very enjoyable to get someone to see my point of view in whatever subject I am interested in whether I am right or wrong, not just the trinity, because I have a rare brain wiring condition that makes it hard for me to share how I see the world. I have no need to do so because I have accepted that much of how I see the world will always be alien to some, so there no longer a sense of failure if I do not succeed, no obsession to convert anyone, just joy when get feedback which seems like I got through to someone...even if they think I am wrong.
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
I would submit that the NT identifies Jesus as the one involved in the conference of Genesis regarding "let us make man in our image", that it was he who was "especially fond of the sons of men", that it was he who showed the compassionate and reasonable face of the OT God and allegedly demonstrated that in human form in the NT, and that the connection between YHWH and Jesus is potentially made in various places.
How about a few verses that you think show this?
I think the traditional Jewish version is that the elohim included the beni-elohim or heavenly host in total, of which a pre-existant Jesus would be one.
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
Simply put I would offer the position that Jesus is refered to as the "god" of the Christian, in the NT literature. Whether you want to believe that to be polytheistic, or as some kind of imparted godhood, he IS refered to as such. He is also refered to as being the one through whom all things were created.I'm not here identifying him with the Father, nor am I alluding to some mysterious conjoining (as seen in the Trinity doctrine), but simply taking what the NT has to say about him, in connection with this thread title.
now since this is what I took you to mean the first time you posted it, it seems that the question is not the problem but your rejection of my answers.
1. if you mean NT literature to include all writings by church fathers outside the bible, I would have to say yes, they did consider Jesus as a god or even part of The God, even Arius who rejected the trinity held that Jesus had a god status which he believed was granted to him by the father and the real quarrel seemed to be about the length of his godhood not its reality.... he believed that Jesus did not exist at some point and thus could not be as his contemporaries claimed, ever god, eternally god, etc.
2. if you are confining yourself to the bible alone, I find no one in it claiming to have Jesus as their god. Their Lord, or master, yes, much as any loyal jew could hold their king as lord and master, but under God, the father. I find there are few verses which trinitarians claim to show otherwise, but they are not very clear, they are certainly not attempts to teach something new, but most often just salutations which seem to be altering nothing, but rather assuming the reader already understood what was meant.
3. I find without ASSUMING a trinitarian point of view, but ASSUMING what is acknowledged as the traditional jewish point of view, that no verses teach that Jesus should be viewed as God.
4. I do find verses which indicate a belief that Jesus pre-existed his human nature in a divine nature, but a divine nature not different from angels... and certainly lower than that of God.
so if you find verses which seem to TEACH that NT authors believed Jesus as their God, I would like to see them...I find none.
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
I have to confess that I AM ignorant of having done such, and on re-reading the thread I can't see what you are refering to. I honestly would be obliged if you would point it out, so that I can refrain from tripping over that one again.
Meanwhile I offer you my profuse apologies, reagardless of whether you accept them or return them in kind.
here is your offending first shot:
Are you so blinded by the fear that this thread may cause you to accede to a single point
now, you are telling you you find nothing insulting about this? presuming that my responses to you can come from no other source then my blindness and fear? when it seems to me I answered your question to the best of my understanding it and your rejection of my answers because it did not accomidate your point of view lead you to attack my view as blindness and fear?
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
Now do you really want to discuss the subject, or are you going to continue to resort to ad hominems?
look, I am sick and tired of people like you accusing ME of RESORTING to ad hominems when it was YOU who fired the first shot and your ignorance about insulting others is what I am not going to excuse.
in all this I have said several times if I remember right that I have lost the point you are attempting to make because your words are not conveying it to me...so restate what you are trying to show and what its basis is...or we can drop this now... and if you insult me again, I will not let you get away with it either.
i don't know about everyone else but i just want to get these stories of godly/demonic intervention out of my system.
hope it doesn't bore you but some are a good laugh now but i truly believed them and some i still believe.. 1. don't open that cabinet- one day my dear step mother was cleaning the kitchen and needed something out of a cabinet that was rarely used.
there was a plastic cake dish that makes this very audible noise when trying to close it(lil cheap cake from winn dixie).
its not demons, its just dead people who, like some on this board are still carrying so much anger they vent it on the JWs by moving smurf dolls and such (^_^)
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
Zen:
Are you so blinded by the fear that this thread may cause you to accede to a single point, that may be deemed Trinitarian, that you cannot see the wood for the trees? Please, try taking off the anti-trinitarian glassses for a moment, and re-read what I posted. Please.
The clarity, of which you speak, is not evident at all. Were it so there would be no dissention.
I dont know who is selling your crack rocks, but you should change dealers.... I have no fear over this rediculous issue, its only a technical puzzle to me, how people like you can be so willing to believe absolute Bull$#!+ so easily without any real evidence or support from the documents you claim....
I futher have NO clue about what point you are so desperate to make because apparently your experiences are causing the shared words to mean something to you that they are not imparting to me.
as to the clarity, I cannot see how it can be much clearer is someone tells you that Jesus is the IMAGE of GOD and you keep ignoring it.
it only becomes muddy when you put on the prejudiced of alreadying believing the trinity and then trying to reconcile all the hundreds of verses which do not show such a thing.
i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.
is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
Do you mind if I ask you some questions?
not at all.
Who do you believe Jesus was? Do you believe He even existed?
I believe that the Jesus of the bible was a gnostic invention, a teaching tool, a myth and that HE never existed. see www.jesusneverexisted.com
Do you believe He was an angel? Do you believe He was Michael?
n/a
Do you believe that He had a pre-existence in Heaven before being born on earth?
n/a
Do you believe that He was only a "good teacher"?
n/a
Do you believe that He was simply another Prophet?
n/a
Do you believe that He was a human upon whom the "Christ Consciousness" came?
n/a
Do you believe that He is just a myth?
yes... I believe that he was a jewish version of the very ancient often told godman savior story found in many cultures around the globe. see PAGAN CHRISTS, THE GOLDEN BOUGH, THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES, etc.
What do YOU believe about Jesus?
I believe the teachings were flawed, they unintentionally, perhaps, promote violence and hatred by teaching that ideas are more important than the people who hold them, and that those with the wrong ones will be burned as weeds in the fire, turned to outer darkness as goats, to weep and gnash their teeth, be damned to gehenna, etc... leading to the concept of the JUST WAR--st augustine... following the words-- those who did not wish me as their king, bring them before me and slaughter them--Luke 19:27
Who do YOU say that Jesus is?
not who, but what... a symbol, an ideal, a myth, a legend, a teaching tool
Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe that it is the Inspired Word of God?
I believe the bible is jewish mythology no better than any other cultural traditions in some ways, just as vile in others...such as justifying war crimes -- numbers 31, and the murder of ones who children who cannot be brainwashed -- Duet 21
Do you believe that Christ died for our sins and was raised up the third day?
n/a
